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James V of Scotland & Mary of Guise

James V of Scotland & Mary of Guise


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James V

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James V, (born April 10, 1512, Linlithgow, West Lothian, Scot.—died Dec. 14, 1542, Falkland, Fife), king of Scotland from 1513 to 1542.

During the period of his minority, which lasted throughout the first half of his reign, James was a pawn in the struggle between pro-French and pro-English factions after he assumed personal control of the government, he upheld Roman Catholicism against the Protestant nobles and allied his country with France.

James was 17 months old when he succeeded to the throne of his father, James IV (ruled 1488–1513). In the power struggle that developed between the pro-French regent, John Stewart, duke of Albany, and the head of the English party, Archibald Douglas, earl of Angus, each side sought to gain possession of the young ruler. James’s mother, Margaret Tudor, complicated events by shifting her allegiance from her husband, Angus, to Albany.

Albany retired to France in 1524, and Angus kept James in confinement from 1526 until 1528, when the king escaped and forced Angus to flee to England. By 1530 James had consolidated his power in Scotland. He signed a treaty with his uncle, King Henry VIII of England, in 1534, but in 1538 he married the French noblewoman Mary of Lorraine and thereafter allied with France against England. A cruel man, he instituted in his later years a near reign of terror in Scotland, and his financial exactions did not endear him to his subjects.

When Henry VIII’s forces attacked Scotland in 1542, James’s small army, weakened by the disaffection of the Protestant nobles, crossed into England and was easily routed near the border at Solway Moss on Nov. 24, 1542. The disaster caused the king to suffer a mental breakdown he died on Dec. 14, 1542, a week after the birth of his daughter—his only surviving legitimate child—Mary Stuart (Mary, Queen of Scots). Among his several illegitimate children was James, earl of Moray (died 1570), who became regent of Scotland when Mary Stuart abdicated her throne in 1567.


Undiscovered Scotland

Marie de Guise lived from 22 November 1515 to 11 June 1560. She was the daughter of Claude, Duke of Guise. At the age of 19 Marie married Louis of Orleans, Duke of Longueville and the following year they had a son, Francis. On 1 January 1537, Marie attended the wedding of James V of Scotland and Madeleine de Valois, the daughter of King Francis I of France. On 9 June 1537, Marie's husband Louis died, and on 4 August 1537 Marie gave birth to her second son, named Louis after his father. The wider picture in Scotland at the time is set out in our Historical Timeline.

Meanwhile Madeleine de Valois had died in July 1537 and James V renewed his search for a bride capable of cementing the ties between Scotland and France. Marie de Guise was the obvious candidate and James V asked Francis I of France for Marie's hand in marriage.

Henry VIII of England sought to prevent what would be a dangerous alliance for England by himself asking Francis I for Marie's hand. Marie, who was by now also grieving the loss of her youngest son Louis, did not relish being the focus of a diplomatic argument that could easily have led to war.

The King of France accepted the proposal of James V of Scotland, and James overcame Marie's reluctance with a letter in which he tried to, in modern football parlance, "agree personal terms". Marie was married by proxy to James V on 18 May 1538 at Notre-Dame de Paris, and sailed to Scotland, where she and James were married in person at St Andrews in June 1538. Marie was crowned Queen Consort at Holyrood Abbey in Edinburgh on 22 February 1540.

In one of those great "what-ifs" of history it is fascinating to speculate how different things might have been had Francis I accepted Henry VIII of England as Marie's husband instead. She would have been Henry's third wife, so the Reformation in England would have taken place anyway: but what if she had given Henry VIII a son? Whatever else, there would have been no Mary Queen of Scots, no James VI and quite probably no Union of the Crowns of England and Scotland.

But that was not what happened. Marie married James, and they had two sons, James and Robert, who both died in infancy. Their daughter, Mary, was born on 8 December 1542 at Linlithgow Palace. On 14 December 1542, James V died, leaving their infant daughter to become Mary Queen of Scots, and Marie de Guise as Regent of Scotland. At the age of 27 she had been married twice, widowed twice, lost four children in infancy, and now found herself ruler of a foreign country on behalf of her baby daughter.

Marie made her main home Stirling Castle, ruling Scotland in close consultation with her brothers, Charles, Cardinal of Lorraine, and Francis, Duke of Guise. Henry VIII of England embarked on a series of savage attacks on Scotland, the rough wooing, designed to force the Scots to allow the infant Mary to be betrothed to Henry's young son Edward. In response the young Mary was sent to France and betrothed to the infant son of the new King Henri II of France, the Dauphin Francois. Meanwhile the French provided considerable military support to the Scots under Marie de Guise.

Marie de Guise ruled Scotland well on behalf of her daughter through most of the 1550s. However, the forces of Protestantism were gathering strength by 1559, led by James Stewart, later 1st Earl of Moray, and Marie herself was increasingly ill with dropsy or edema. The Catholic Marie faced the Protestant Lords of the Congregation at Perth on 22 May 1559, but had to retreat to Edinburgh where, with the help of French troops she recaptured the city. The protestant Elizabeth I of England responded by blockading the River Forth in January 1560 and sporadic fighting continued until Marie's death in Edinburgh Castle on 11 June 1560.

The Treaty of Edinburgh which followed Marie's death, in July 1560, provided for the withdrawal of all French and English forces. It also marked the start of the full force of the Reformation in Scotland, and the end of the "Auld Alliance" between Scotland and France. Marie de Guise was buried at the church in the Convent of Saint-Pierre in Reims, where Marie's sister Renée was the abbess.


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About Mary of Guise, Queen Consort of Scotland

Mary of Guise, Queen consort of Scots

Consort in Scotland 4 August 1534 - 9 June 1537

18 May 1538 – 14 December 1542

Coronation 22 February 1540

Spouse Louis II, Duke of Longueville

Father Claude, Duke of Guise

Mother Antoinette of Bourbon-Vendôme

Died 11 June 1560 (aged 44) (dropsy)

Edinburgh Castle, Scotland

Burial Saint Pierre de Reims, France

"Mary of Guise (French: Marie 22 November 1515 – 11 June 1560) was queen of Scotland as the second spouse of King James V. She was the mother of Mary, Queen of Scots, and served as regent of Scotland in her daughter's name from 1554 to 1560. A native of Lorraine, she was a member of the powerful House of Guise, which played a prominent role in 16th-century French politics."

[S6] G.E. Cokayne with Vicary Gibbs, H.A. Doubleday, Geoffrey H. White, Duncan Warrand and Lord Howard de Walden, editors, The Complete Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain and the United Kingdom, Extant, Extinct or Dormant, new ed., 13 volumes in 14 (1910-1959 reprint in 6 volumes, Gloucester, U.K.: Alan Sutton Publishing, 2000), volume I, page 82. Hereinafter cited as The Complete Peerage.

[S3409] Caroline Maubois, "re: Penancoet Family," e-mail message to Darryl Roger Lundy, 2 December 2008. Hereinafter cited as "re: Penancoet Family."

[S11] Alison Weir, Britain's Royal Family: A Complete Genealogy (London, U.K.: The Bodley Head, 1999), page 241. Hereinafter cited as Britain's Royal Family.

[S323] Sir James Balfour Paul, The Scots Peerage: founded on Wood's edition of Sir Robert Douglas's The Peerage of Scotland (Edinburgh, Scotland: David Douglas, 1904), volume I, page 23. Hereinafter cited as The Scots Peerage.

[S14] #236 Encyclopຝie génບlogique des maisons souveraines du monde (1959-1966), Sirjean, Gaston, (Paris: Gaston Sirjean, 1959-1966), FHL book 944 D5se., vol. 1 pt. 1 p. 95.

[S39] Medieval, royalty, nobility family group sheets (filmed 1996), Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Family History Department. Medieval Family History Unit, (Manuscript. Salt Lake City, Utah : Filmed by the Genealogical Society of Utah, 1996), FHL film 1553977-1553985..

[S15] Les Valois (1990), Van Kerrebrouck, Patrick, (Villeneuve d'Ascq [France]: P. Van Kerrebrouck, 1990), FHL book 929.244 V247k., p. 449.

[S7] #44 Histoire de la maison royale de France anciens barons du royaume: et des grands officiers de la couronne (1726, reprint 1967-1968), Saint-Marie, Anselme de, (3rd edition. 9 volumes. 1726. Reprint Paris: Editions du Palais Royal, 1967-1968), FHL book 944 D5a FHL microfilms 532,231-532,239., vol. 1 p. 218.

[S4] #11232 The Genealogist (1980-), Association for the Promotion of Scholarship in Genealogy, (New York: Organization for the Promotion of Scholarship in Genealogy, 1980-), FHL book 929.105 G286n., Fall 1981, vol. 2 no. 2 p. 164:19.

[S7] #44 Histoire de la maison royale de France anciens barons du royaume: et des grands officiers de la couronne (1726, reprint 1967-1968), Saint-Marie, Anselme de, (3rd edition. 9 volumes. 1726. Reprint Paris: Editions du Palais Royal, 1967-1968), FHL book 944 D5a FHL microfilms 532,231-532,239., vol. 3 p. 485.

[S3] Medieval Lands: A Prosopography of Medieval European Noble and Royal Families, Cawley, Charles, (http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands), SCOTLAND KINGS http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTLAND.htm [Accessed Nov 2009].

[S15] Les Valois (1990), Van Kerrebrouck, Patrick, (Villeneuve d'Ascq [France]: P. Van Kerrebrouck, 1990), FHL book 929.244 V247k., p. 209.

[S23] #849 Burke's Guide to the Royal Family (1973), (London: Burke's Peerage, c1973), FHl book 942 D22bgr., p. 204, 320.

[S16] #894 Cahiers de Saint-Louis (1976), Louis IX, Roi de France, (Angers: J. Saillot, 1976), FHL book 944 D22ds., vol. 3 p. 151.

[S6] #189 The Scots Peerage: Founded on Wood's Edition of Sir Robert Douglas's Peerage of Scotland, Containing an Historical and Genealogical Account of the Nobility of that Kingdom, with Armorial Illustrations (1904-1914), Paul , Sir James Balfour, (9 volumes. Edinburgh: D. Douglas, 1904-1914), FHL book 941 D22p FHL microfilms104,157-104,161., vol. 1 p. 23.

[S679] Pedigrees of Some of the Emperor Charlemagne's Descendants (1974-1979), Buck, J. Orton [James Orton], (3 volumes. 1941. Reprint Baltimore: Genealogical Pub. Co., c1974-1978, 1979), FHL book 940 D5p., vol. 2 p. 65. daughter of the widow of Louis d"Orleans, Duke de Longueville.

[S631] An Encyclopedia of World History Ancient, Medieval, and Modern, Chronologically Arranged (1972), Langer, William L., (5th edition. Boston: Houghton Mifflin Company, 1972), p. 396.

[S32] #150 [1879-1967] A Genealogical and Heraldic Dictionary of the Peerage and Baronetage, Together with Memoirs of the Privy Councillors and Knights (1879-1967), Burke, Sir John Bernard, (London: Harrison, 1879-1967), FHL book 942 D22bup., 1967 ed. p. lxv.

[S22] #374 The Lineage and Ancestry of H. R. H. Prince Charles, Prince of Wales (1977), Paget, Gerald, (2 volumes. Baltimore: Geneal. Pub., 1977), FHL book Q 942 D22pg., vol. 1 p. 32.

[S4] #11232 The Genealogist (1980-), Association for the Promotion of Scholarship in Genealogy, (New York: Organization for the Promotion of Scholarship in Genealogy, 1980-), FHL book 929.105 G286n., vol. 2 pt. 2 p. 164 no. 19.

[S4] #11232 The Genealogist (1980-), Association for the Promotion of Scholarship in Genealogy, (New York: Organization for the Promotion of Scholarship in Genealogy, 1980-), FHL book 929.105 G286n., Fall 1981, vol. 2 no. 2 p. 164:18.


Mary of Guise

Mary of Guise was born at Bar in France on 22 November 1515. She was the eldest of the twelve children of Claude of Lorraine, Duke of Guise and Antoinette of Bourbon, daughter of Francis, Count of Vendome, and Marie de Luxembourg.

In 1534, at the age of eighteen, Mary, who was tall and attractive with auburn hair, was married to Louis II of Orleans, Duke of Longueville, who held extensive estates in Normandy and the valley of the Loire. The marriage produced two sons, Francis, the future Duke of Longueville (1535-1551) and Louis, died young. The Duke of Longueville died on June 1537, probably of smallpox, leaving Mary, a widow at twenty-one.

Mary of Guise

Two months later, Mary's hand in marriage was sought by James V, King of Scots whose young wife Madeleine of Valois had recently died, and also by King Henry VIII of England, a widower since the death of Jane Seymour. King James was attempting to strengthen the 'auld alliance' with France, Mary was not over eager to enter into the match with the formidable Henry VIII and when he remarked on her fine stature she retorted with the witty repartee that although her body was big, she had a very small neck. Mary was married to James of Scotland by proxy in Paris in May 1538 and at in person at St Andrews after her arrival in Scotland. The couple had two two sons, James (b. May 1540) and Robert (b. April 1541), who died within a few days of each other in April 1541.

During James' reign, Protestantism began to gain influence. His refusal to join his Protestant uncle in plundering the church's revenues angered the notoriously intolerant and bombastic Henry VIII. The death of James's mother, Margaret Tudor, in 1541 removed any incentive for peace with England. Henry invited James to a conference at York, the Scots King did not trust his overbearing uncle and deemed it unwise to attend. Henry was humiliatingly left to await his attendance at York and gave vent to his usual venomous fury when any dared to defy him.

James V, King of Scots

The Scots experienced a crushing defeat by the English at Solway Moss on the 24th November 1542, where many of the Scottish lords were taken, prisoner. King James took the affair very badly. His emotional nature led him into a deep depression over the event with an overriding sense of defeat and humiliation, made worse by constant worry about the fate of his favourite Oliver Sinclair, who was reported to have fled.

The King, who did not take part in the battle as he was ill with a fever, retired to his palace of Linlithgow, in a continued state of great mental anguish. He then moved onto Falkland. Here he received the news that his pregnant Queen had been delivered on 7th December 1542, not of the much-hoped-for son and heir to Scotland, but a daughter, christened Mary. James, now totally crushed and in a state of severe anxiety and foreboding lamented piteously "Adieu, farewell, it came with a lass and will pass with a lass", referring to his dynasty's position on Scotland's throne being established by Marjorie Bruce's marriage to his ancestor Walter Stewart. Six days later, on 14th December 1542, the King died. He was but thirty years old. James was buried at Holyrood Abbey beside his two young sons and his first wife, Madeleine of Valois.

Mary's ally, Cardinal David Beton, the head of the French and Catholic party, produced a will of King James V which assigned the regency to himself. The fiery and fanatical Protestant reformer John Knox accused the queen of undue intimacy with Beton and further similar allegations were raised in 1543 by Sir Ralph Sadler, the English envoy. Beton was arrested and James V's kinsman, James Hamilton, Earl of Arran, was appointed regent of Scotland. Through his paternal grandmother Mary of Scotland, Hamilton was the great-grandson of King James II of Scotland. After the death of John Stewart, Duke of Albany, in 1536, Arran became the next in line of succession after the king's immediate family. The ambitious Arran planned to secure the hand of the infant heiress to Scotland for his son.

In a desire to dominate Scotland, Henry VIII of England ardently wished to arrange the marriage of the infant Mary, Queen of Scots and his son and heir, the future Edward VI. This led to internal conflicts in Scotland between those who preferred an alliance with France. Following the coronation of the nine months old Queen at the Chapel Royal, Stirling Castle in September, Mary of Guise was appointed a principal member of the council appointed to rule Scotland in her minority. Mary planned to secure a French alliance for her daughter.

Arms of James V King of Scots and Mary of Guise from Stirling Castle

The marriage treaty between Mary, not then one-year-old, and Edward was signed on the 1st of July, 1543 at Greenwich, and agreed that Mary should be placed in Henry's care when she reached the age of ten. Mary and her daughter were carefully observed at Linlithgow, but on the 23rd of July, aided by Beton, 1543 they managed to escape to the safety of Stirling castle. In 1544 Mary made a premature attempt to seize the regency, but reconciliation with Arran was brought about by Cardinal Beton. Beton was later assassinated by Protestant lords.

The English invasions of 1547, to enforce the marriage, referred to as the 'Rough Wooing', provided Mary with the desired excuse for a French alliance. After the Scottish defeat at the Battle of Pinkie Cleugh in September 1547, French military aid weakened English resolve and increased the power of Mary of Guise. In June 1548 a French fleet, under the command of Andre de Montalembert, seigneur d'Esse, landed at Leith to reinforce the Scots army and laid siege to Haddington, then in the hands of the English.

The Scottish parliament agreed to the marriage of the young queen with Francis, the dauphin of France, to secure her safety from Henry VIII's designs, Mary Queen of Scots sailed from Dumbarton for France in August 1548. Mary and Francois were brought up together at the French court and were married on 24 April 1558. Her father-in-law, Henry II of France wrote 'from the very first day they met, my son and she got on as well together as if they had known each other for a long time' She spent the rest of her childhood at the French court.

Mary of Guise devoted her energies to the expulsion of the English from Scotland. In September 1550 she obtained confirmation of the dukedom and revenues of Chatelherault for the Earl of Arran from Henry II of France, hoping to induce Arran to resign the regency. The offer was refused until April 1554, when Arran finally resigned after receiving assurance of his rights to the Scottish succession. Mary's granting high offices of state to Frenchmen caused ill-feeling to the growing Protestant party in Scotland.

Mary on 6 September 1550 to visit her young daughter Mary in France. At Rouen, the Dowager Queen and her daughter, the Queen of Scots rode in procession behind troops carrying banners depicting Scottish fortresses recently recovered by the French. She remained at the French court at Blois over the winter, in April Mary received news of a plot to poison her young daughter, the culprit Robert Stewart, who was discovered in London was delivered to the French in May. Mary spent the rest of the summer at the court of King Henry II.

Sadly, while accompanying her to Dieppe on her return journey to Scotland, Mary's son Francis, Duke of Longueville, with whom she had kept up a regular correspondence, died at Amiens in 1551 at the age of sixteen. Mary landed at Portsmouth and in October 1551 she met the young King Edward VI of England. At a meeting with Mary which took place at Whitehall Palace, Edward presented her a diamond ring which had belonged to his step-mother, Henry VIII's sixth and final wife Queen Catherine Parr.

The young Mary Stuart

In 1557, a group of Scottish lords known as the 'Lords of the Congregation', drew up a covenant to 'maintain, set forth, and establish the most blessed Word of God and his Congregation'. Outbreaks of iconoclasm followed in 1558/59. In 1558, Mary summoned the Protestant preachers to answer to her but was forced to back down when the lords threatened to revolt. With the accession of the Protestant Queen Elizabeth I in England in 1558 the Lords of the Congregation began to receive to secret support from England.

Mary Queen of Scots also possessed a hereditary claim to the throne of England, through her grandmother, Margaret Tudor, eldest daughter of Henry VII. Elizabeth was considered by the Catholics to be illegitimate, and on her accession, Mary Stewart's father-in-law quartered the arms of England with those of the Queen of Scots, thereby declaring her the true heiress of England. Elizabeth was never to forget this insult and her father-in-law's actions were to have disastrous results for Mary in the future. As the Scottish Reformation crisis was developing, Henry II of France died on 10 July 1559, and the young Mary Stuart became Queen Consort of France.

For the present, however, Mary was the cosseted darling of the French court, the doting Henri II wrote 'The little Queen of Scots is the most perfect child I have ever seen.' He corresponded frequently with Marie of Guise, expressing his delight in his young daughter-in-law. Mary's maternal grandmother, Antoinette of Guise, in a letter to her daughter in Scotland, stated that she found Mary ' very pretty, graceful and self assured.'

Among Mary's ambassadors were the Protestant Earl of Argyll and James Stewart, Earl of Moray, the treacherous illegitimate son of James V. When Mary stationed French mercenaries in Perth, both abandoned her cause and joined the Lords of the Congregation at St Andrew's, along with John Knox. Edinburgh fell to the Lords of the Congregation in July, and Mary was forced to retreat to Dunbar. The Articles of Leith at Leith Links signed on 25 July 1559 established religious tolerance in Scotland.

In September, James Stewart, Duke of Châtelherault was appointed leader of the Lords of the Congregation and established a provisional government. Mary of Guise received aid from France in the form of troops and in November the rebel lords were driven back to Stirling. An English fleet arrived in the Firth of Forth in January 1560, resulting in the retreat of the French to Leith. Negotiations with England commenced, from which Knox was distinctly excluded, his unfortunate tract 'The First Blast of the Trumpet Against the Monstrous Regiment of Women' although it had been aimed at the Catholic Mary Tudor, had met with the stern displeasure of Elizabeth I. The Treaty of Berwick signed in February allied Châtelherault with the English to expel the French. Elizabeth I dispatched an English army to join the Scots in besieging the French at Leith.

Mary fell ill during negotiations to end the conflict in May of 1560. She suffered from congestive heart failure and was experiencing symptoms of dropsy. On her deathbed, she urged the warring parties to make peace and declare allegiance to Mary, Queen of Scots. On June 8 she made her will and died on June 11. Her body was wrapped in lead and kept in Edinburgh castle for several months after which it was taken to France where she was buried in the church at the Convent of Saint-Pierre in Reims, where her sister Renée of Guise was abbess. At the end of 1560, Mary, Queen of Scots husband Francois II of France died of a middle ear infection which led to an abscess in his brain and Mary returned home to a Protestant Scotland that now despised her Catholic religion as dark clouds gathered on the horizon.


Mary Of Guise Queen Consort Of James V Of Scotland (1825)

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Half-siblings

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              James V (1512-1542)

              Born in 1512, the infant James V became King in 1513. He reigned via regents until 1528, and then in his own right until his death, aged only 30, in December 1542.

              James fathered no fewer than nine illegitimate children, he had two wives, two sons who both died and one legitimate daughter, Mary I (Mary Queen of Scots), who would inherit his throne when she was only six days old.

              James took full control in 1528, having escaped virtual imprisonment at the hands of his stepfather, Archibald Douglas, Earl of Angus. His first move was to remove Douglas.

              James spent considerable sums of money building at Stirling Castle and Falkland, Linlithgow and Holyrood Palaces. He subdued the border rebels and the chiefs of the Western Isles. He renewed the Auld Alliance by marrying Madeleine of Valois but she died six months later. He then married a second French noble, Marie de Guise.

              On 25 November 1542 the Scots were defeated at the Battle of Solway Moss by the forces of Henry VIII. King James V died just a few weeks later on 14 December. He had just heard of the birth of his daughter, Mary.

              It is said that James recalled that the Stuarts had gained the crown through Marjorie, daughter of King Robert the Bruce - he turned his face to the wall of his bedchamber in Falkland Palace and said 'It came from a woman, and it will end in a woman.'


              James V and Mary of Guise have surviving male issue.

              Which one is closest to (and being pressured by) Henry/Frances Grey? Though it's worth noting that Henry might be less influential ITTL if butterflies keep one or both of Charles Brandon's sons by Catherine Willoughby alive and prevent the Greys getting the Dukedom of Suffolk.

              How robust was Jane's health? Because giving birth to her first kid at 15, and then two more in the following two years, could kill her.

              Would Henry Grey be a shoe-in for the regency, as the kid's grandfather? Presumably with Dudley nearby.

              It's kinda irrelevant to the issue at hand, but how does being aunts to the king as well as 4/5/6/7th in the line of succession (depending on how you want to count Mary and Elizabeth) affect the marital prospects of the younger Grey sisters (keeping in mind Mary Grey is still a hunchback)?

              I presume no Queen Mary means Norfolk dies in the Tower? Does Courtenay stay in there too?

              VVD0D95

              Which one is closest to (and being pressured by) Henry/Frances Grey? Though it's worth noting that Henry might be less influential ITTL if butterflies keep one or both of Charles Brandon's sons by Catherine Willoughby alive and prevent the Greys getting the Dukedom of Suffolk.

              How robust was Jane's health? Because giving birth to her first kid at 15, and then two more in the following two years, could kill her.

              Would Henry Grey be a shoe-in for the regency, as the kid's grandfather? Presumably with Dudley nearby.

              It's kinda irrelevant to the issue at hand, but how does being aunts to the king as well as 4/5/6/7th in the line of succession (depending on how you want to count Mary and Elizabeth) affect the marital prospects of the younger Grey sisters (keeping in mind Mary Grey is still a hunchback)?

              I presume no Queen Mary means Norfolk dies in the Tower? Does Courtenay stay in there too?

              A good point re the greys and the possible survival of the Brandon's that was something if not thought of that would be very interesting to explore. How powerful would the Brandon's be in this scenario?

              I imagine the grey sisters marriage prospects are vastly improved. And that yes Howard remains in the tower

              Chateauroux

              Alright interesting, would they risk using two potential valuable bargaining tools with the same kingdom?

              And okay, so do you not think the King would convert then?

              VVD0D95

              Chateauroux

              VVD0D95

              VVD0D95

              Mcdnab

              On James V's death the Earl of Arran (who was the nearest heir to the Scot's throne in default of the House of Stuart) will become regent for the infant James VI.
              In OTL he held the regency until 1554 though he was in conflict with Cardinal Beaton (who himself had angled to be named regent).
              Marie of Guise didn't attempt to take control until the 1550s and that was after suggesting her illegitimate stepson first and it was mainly at the urging of her family in France.

              France's only interest in Scotland - a third-rate and relatively poor power - was its proximity to England.

              In Protestant terms - nothing much changes though you will avoid the Protestant gain in power during the final years of Mary of Guise's regency as the King will be of age by then in this tl. A long minority means conflict and the perfect setting for religious divisions to grow - particularly if the English interfere)

              (In OTL Mary of Guises - pro-French policy saw her being urged to take a stronger line against Protestants by France following Elizabeth's accession in England and that resulted in them reacting against her rule hence their move to take full political control - all of that is now avoided)

              Assuming King James VI is Catholic but willing to tread the balance between the two sides - then Scotland in the 1560s might be more politically settled but Scots regency's were notoriously difficult and usually the new monarch once he came of age had loads of scores to settle - another issue might be how the new young King gets on with his protestant illegitimate half-brother and the rest of his peers.

              You might get a country nominally Catholic but with a toleration of religious dissent but any crack-down by a Catholic King will be met with resistance and after 1558 the King might face a strong Protestant nobility backed by English money. His brother might convert giving Protestants a figure head for example (not unusual for Stewart Royal brother's to fall out) - or he might have a Protestant leaning himself and accept the Kirk alienating his Catholic French relations in the process but making himself far more popular with his cousin south of the border.

              In marital terms - Mary Stuart is not that good a match for the French Dauphin any more - the English might be keen still but Henry VIII also was reported to have considered her mother the widowed Scots Queen for himself - likely Mary stays at home in the royal nursery with her brother's and the rough wooing never happens - her fate will largely depend on her brother by the time she is of an age to marry.

              Henri II will be more interested in keeping James VI on side during the reign of the pro-Spanish Mary Tudor so he might be offered one of Henri's numerous daughter's as a wife and perhaps lose out when a better offer reaches the French court.

              James might consider himself the legal heir to England on the death of Mary Tudor without issue so either a failed conflict or a game of cat and mouse similar to Elizabeth's initial relationship with Mary - If James is Catholic then the English Council will put even more pressure on Elizabeth to up and marry someone.

              I don't think an alternate Scots succession changes the English situation much at all - they will continue to try and browbeat Scotland into being a subservient power - I am sure Henry VIII's in the 1540s will offer a number of matches to try and get the Scots firmly in his camp probably with no success.

              Edward VI will probably also be considered for the Princess Mary Stuart by both sides and it might get as far as a betrothal but probably all it will be (she will only be 11 at Edward VI's death). Mary Tudor will ultimately succeed and despite their shared religion will probably still pursue her disastrous pro-Spanish policy - a King north of the border allied with France might cause her more difficulty than his mother did in OTL - though she might try and buy them off with vague offers of marriage to her sister Elizabeth without any great intention of following through.

              The biggest change will be whether the House of Stuart still succeeds if Elizabeth still dies without issue.

              VVD0D95

              On James V's death the Earl of Arran (who was the nearest heir to the Scot's throne in default of the House of Stuart) will become regent for the infant James VI.
              In OTL he held the regency until 1554 though he was in conflict with Cardinal Beaton (who himself had angled to be named regent).
              Marie of Guise didn't attempt to take control until the 1550s and that was after suggesting her illegitimate stepson first and it was mainly at the urging of her family in France.

              France's only interest in Scotland - a third-rate and relatively poor power - was its proximity to England.

              In Protestant terms - nothing much changes though you will avoid the Protestant gain in power during the final years of Mary of Guise's regency as the King will be of age by then in this tl. A long minority means conflict and the perfect setting for religious divisions to grow - particularly if the English interfere)

              (In OTL Mary of Guises - pro-French policy saw her being urged to take a stronger line against Protestants by France following Elizabeth's accession in England and that resulted in them reacting against her rule hence their move to take full political control - all of that is now avoided)

              Assuming King James VI is Catholic but willing to tread the balance between the two sides - then Scotland in the 1560s might be more politically settled but Scots regency's were notoriously difficult and usually the new monarch once he came of age had loads of scores to settle - another issue might be how the new young King gets on with his protestant illegitimate half-brother and the rest of his peers.

              You might get a country nominally Catholic but with a toleration of religious dissent but any crack-down by a Catholic King will be met with resistance and after 1558 the King might face a strong Protestant nobility backed by English money. His brother might convert giving Protestants a figure head for example (not unusual for Stewart Royal brother's to fall out) - or he might have a Protestant leaning himself and accept the Kirk alienating his Catholic French relations in the process but making himself far more popular with his cousin south of the border.

              In marital terms - Mary Stuart is not that good a match for the French Dauphin any more - the English might be keen still but Henry VIII also was reported to have considered her mother the widowed Scots Queen for himself - likely Mary stays at home in the royal nursery with her brother's and the rough wooing never happens - her fate will largely depend on her brother by the time she is of an age to marry.

              Henri II will be more interested in keeping James VI on side during the reign of the pro-Spanish Mary Tudor so he might be offered one of Henri's numerous daughter's as a wife and perhaps lose out when a better offer reaches the French court.

              James might consider himself the legal heir to England on the death of Mary Tudor without issue so either a failed conflict or a game of cat and mouse similar to Elizabeth's initial relationship with Mary - If James is Catholic then the English Council will put even more pressure on Elizabeth to up and marry someone.

              I don't think an alternate Scots succession changes the English situation much at all - they will continue to try and browbeat Scotland into being a subservient power - I am sure Henry VIII's in the 1540s will offer a number of matches to try and get the Scots firmly in his camp probably with no success.

              Edward VI will probably also be considered for the Princess Mary Stuart by both sides and it might get as far as a betrothal but probably all it will be (she will only be 11 at Edward VI's death). Mary Tudor will ultimately succeed and despite their shared religion will probably still pursue her disastrous pro-Spanish policy - a King north of the border allied with France might cause her more difficulty than his mother did in OTL - though she might try and buy them off with vague offers of marriage to her sister Elizabeth without any great intention of following through.

              The biggest change will be whether the House of Stuart still succeeds if Elizabeth still dies without issue.


              Watch the video: Reign - Elizabeth Tudor speech (May 2022).